September 16, 2008


I used to see her in the Old Bailey but I've never spoken to her. One of the younger guys who used to hang around Hamza was working for her as a trainee assistant.

Barrister Michael Wolkind QC said the allegations against Ms Arani should have been cleared up in "15 minutes rather than 15 months" - and he criticised other lawyers for isolating her.

"She came to prominence because of her hard work," he said. "She deserves to regain her professional reputation."

As I've said I've never spoken to her but I'm assuming the problem between her and other lawyers and the press is that she believes Hamza is who he said he was at the trial, which leads all of them to assume that she supports terrorism.


African neocon said...

Everyone should have the right to legal representation in a democracy. The problem for me is that, the likes of Muktar Ibrahim (the leader of the 21/7 failed attacks) and Ms Arani must have been really smart to think that he could plead innocent and expect to get off. Writing as a legal novice wasn't it blindingly obvious that Muktar Ibrahim was guility from the start and wouldn't it have been better to just plead guilty? Democracy and human rights as much as I have signed up to it can make an arse out us all sometimes.

DAVE BONES said...

Good to hear from you again, hope you are well. I have been checking your blog from time to time for further Big Pas stories.

I have heard a rumour that The Shura in Belmarsh says everyone pleads innocent, which might have been one reason why they moved Atilla when he pleaded guilty.

DAVE BONES said...

I suppose the reason is that if everyone fights their case it causes maximum disruption to the court system.

African neocon said...

Hey Dave! Trust you're well too? Big Pas is still doing porridge and looking forward to being released sometime next year.

How's Atilla doing? Any gossip on Mohammed Hamid? Has he found religion or decided to study for a law degree or something?

DAVE BONES said...

Hamid is a another story completely. I ain't saying shit. Do say hi to Big Pas from me, are you going to write some more? I've been checking every so often, I thought you'd found something better to do.

Anonymous said...

Further information/reading on the case of Ms Arani & the July 21st accused is here.

I must say that the convicting evidence is very lame (but read for yourself Dave).

Another legal case featuring a relative of one accused on the periphery of the July 21st 'events' is here. These case notes contain the statement:

'even though there is no direct evidence (at any rate in open materials) of Mohammed Hamid having organised the trip'

referring to the 2004 'terror training camp' in Cumbria which featured in the July 21st & Mohammed Hamid trials.

3 questions:

1. Why has 'AP' not been tried in an open court like the other dozen or so family members/close aquaintances of the July 21st accused? (Instead he is subject to a control order, probably with no realistic prospect of trial).

2. Why the need for closed session evidence against 'AP'? (indicating state/mischief involvement)

3. Who did organise the Cumbria Training camps in May 2004, which were monitored/photographed by the security services & provided page splashed 'evidence' of the accuseds' 'terrorist intentions'?

DAVE BONES said...

Thanks for the links. Very interesting stuff. You can read that about the 21/7 guys and think the evidence is lame? You surprise me. In what way is it lame?

What surprises me is that they actually bothered to advance this defence. Why didn't they say- Yes. We were trying to bomb London as retaliation for Iraq?

I don't get how someone who has the courage of their convictions to boil so much hydrogen peroxide down, make TATP, fix shrapnel etc etc doesn't have the courage of his convictions to state those convictions clearly when that device doesn't work.

DAVE BONES said...

I haven't read the second link, I will return to it later this evening. Cheers for posting.

Anonymous said...

I think that the evidence is weak:

In section #10, we are told: Omar's flat at 58 Curtis House was the bomb factory where the majority, if not all the work of constructing the bombs took place and there was ample evidence during the spring and early summer of 2005 which linked Ibrahim, Asiedu and Yahya with Curtis House

There was, of course, lots of photos of empty hydrogen peroxide bottles & video footage of large unmarked brown boxes being wheeled out of a nik nak store, but there was no (ample) evidence of any explosive material found at 58 Curtis House presented at the trial - only 0.000000411 grams of TATP [triacetone triperoxide] at Mr [Ramzi] Mohammed's home in west London (which wasn't even, we are told, the main 'bomb factory'). (The 'terror' saucepans and the cooker were a bit scuzzy, though).

Sections #33 to #38 details the unprocedural 'safety interviews' undertaken with no legal representation present.

Section #29 provides a summary of the evidence:

Fulford J [the Judge] summed up the case to the jury. The most superficial glance reveals that it was the product of characteristic thoroughness and accuracy. ... The essential contentions advanced by counsel are directed at the judge's decisions in relation to the ['safety'] police interviews, the Osman "confession" [apparently made to 2 prison guards at 3am, after evidence submissions in the court case had already concluded - also Osman then ended up with a beating - blamed on Younis Tsouli] and the allegations made against Ms Arani (now dropped).

Maybe it was the others unknown who boiled so much hydrogen peroxide down (is that possible?), made the TATP (at a different location, leaving more nanograms around), fixed the shrapnel etc etc.

The accused did state that it was a hoax demonstration protest (much like the airline plot accused protest videos), probably coaxed on by the others unknowm...

Also how can it be explained that numerous associates/family members of the July 21st accused were captured days before the 4 main accused were captured, & charged with assisting the offenders'.

I would be interested in your thoughts after reading the 'AP' judgement, knowing Hamid as you did.

We know that (at least 1 - Dawood) special branch mole/agent provocateur was amidst Hamid's lot.

DAVE BONES said...

They are both fascinating documents. Thanks for posting them. I am busy over the weekend but will take time to study them properly and look for your references.

I wouldn't say I know Hamid, I met him twice. He came across as the nicest of guys both times, but that isn't knowing someone. I saw Hamza a hell of a lot more and I wouldn't say I knew him either, but I would say he knows me.

Anonymous said...

If TATP was £50 per gram, the amount that was found & presented to the court as evidence of terrorist/bomb manufacture contentions, £1 would buy you 48,662 lots of such evidence.

I'd say that was very weak physical evidence, considering that members of the J21 gang were under surveillance.

African neocon said...

I’m yet to read the links by Anonymous (in full) but what I knew of Mohammed Hamid and what others knew of him at Speakers’ Corner (at least the Hecklers) he didn’t need anyone to coax him into saying the abhorrent things he said vis a vis terrorism. Likewise, anyone suggesting that Dawood was acting as an “AP” really had no idea about Mohammed Hamid.

DAVE BONES said...

Okay I read the second court document you posted. Its hard to tell who AP is. I'm surprised he didn't appear on a probe somewhere. It is interesting to see where this crosses over with Hamid's activities.

Like I said at the time, I am disturbed that our laws criminalise any Muslim training for anything, as I believe there to be legitimate struggles which Muslims, if they take their religion seriously would feel compelled to join.

Obviously the reasons the laws have changed have a lot to do with the actions of a tiny number of Muslims on 7/7 and 21/7.

As far as 21/7, I can't see what you are saying as logical. If the evidence is flimsy why did they claim they were planting fake bombs as a protest? Why didn't they say they were framed?

Anonymous said...

Dave, one of the accused (Hussein Osman/Hamdi Isaac) did say (in Italy) that others directed him/ told him. We know that others 'unknown' were involved as this was listed on the court indictment.

There are no reports of any of the accused stating that they were framed, during the trial reporting, but who knows what went on in the earlier (unreported) case management hearings & during the 'in-camera' court sessions. It is known that there were unprocedural 'safety interviews' & that an 'interviewing strategy was used.

Strange also that one of the original charges on the indictment - 'conspiracy to cause explosions' was dropped off the original court indictment during the trial. But then 'Asiedu' pleaed guilty to that (dropped) charge at his (closed) retrial!!?!.

& the fact that Hussein Osman/Hamdi Isaac did not take the stand is strange too - however, we were told that he confesses at the last minute to 2 prison guards, after the evidence submission sessions have closed!!?!

Something strikes me as very strange regarding the whole July 21st events & the prosecutions, from the early surveillance in 2004, through to the passport facilitations, the travel ease of Muktar Ibrahim Said etc.

I think Apellant 'AP' is related to the Girmas, alleged wife of Hamdi Isaac/Osman.

Why do you think AP has not been put to trial? Hamid was not charged with any 'terrorist connections' with the Cumbria camp, so why should 'AP' be subject to a control order & be subject to draconian restrictions, on the basis that he was at the Cumbria camp etc.

Control Orders impinge upon people - those under Control Orders cannot visit people, & everyone who visits them has to be vetted/approved, they cannot research the internet & look at these 2 BAILII documents etc. & seek any justice.

What a horrible state of affairs.

DAVE BONES said...

I can imagine those saftey interviews were pretty intense. I don't seriously doubt the conviction. I've not heard a lot about these guys from inside Belmarsh. Hamid was convicted of training terrorists in the Lake District.

Anonymous said...

Thanks for sticking with this Dave.

Hamid was convicted of training terrorists in the Lake District.

It may surprise you, but he wasn't convicted of training terrorists at the Cumbria camping trip! (although reports of the Lake District camp featured heavily in the news stories of Hamid Trial).

Reading the Appellant 'AP' judgement:

Section 24:
Mohammed Hamid is assessed by the Security Service to have organised this [Cumbria] trip. His subsequent conviction relating to other training camps is some support for that, and even though there is no direct evidence (at any rate in open materials) of Mohammed Hamid having organised the [Cumbria] trip

Section 31:
[policeman] acknowledging that at the time of AP's trip to Cumbria, the law did not criminalise terrorist training.

Section 32:
Mohammed Hamid who (if he did not organise the [Cumbria] trip) at least suggested it, and has subsequently been convicted of providing terrorist training at other camps

So what camping/excursion trips that Mohammed Hamid allegedly organised were the basis of
his terrorist training conviction?

'Terrorist training' was outlawed under section 6 of the Terrorism Act 2006, (the first person to be charged was Yassin Mutegombwa, who was the older brother of Hassan Mutegombwa, who was found guilty by a jury of 'procuring funds for terrorism' (or asking undercover agent Dawood for some money for a trip to Uganda), in November 2007.

Hassan was arrested at the same time as the rest of the Overamp lot, but he was subject to an advance trial & conviction which was kept under wraps & perhaps used as evidence to help sway the Hamid trial jury.

The 2 locations of post Section 6 legislation 'terrorist training' were Matley Wood campsite in the New Forest (April 28 to May 1 and June 2 to 5 2006) & Pondwood Farm, White Waltham near Maidenhead (June 18 2006) - the same paintball centre where the BBC arranged, paid for & filmed the 'players' (as recounted in court by Nasreen Suleaman).

Anonymous said...

Note that the paintball centre at Pondwood farm was visited by Hamid etc. in Feb 2005 (the BBC Don't panic I'm Islamic documentary was shown on June 12, 2005 on BBC2).

DAVE BONES said...

That was it. The New Forest. I remember the video now. Holding sticks like guns, practicing rolls, jumping over narrow rivers shouting Allah ho Akbar. Musa Brown was in most of these videos yet he got off. Very strange stuff. My argument with counting this as terrorist training is that it clearly isn't. It's military training for military situations in the countryside, which I would strongly suspect to be Chechnya, Afghanistan, parts of Africa, ie, not bombing London. Not making bombs. Not terrorism. As for Yassin, Yasser told me he wanted to go home and visit his folks.

Obviously I heard Hamids "Breakfast" comments and I think Atilla was guilty of most of what he pleaded guilty to.

Anonymous said...

Was/Is there a video from the New Forest 'terrorist training' site?

'Don't Panic I'm Islamic' (if I'm not mistaken) was filmed only at 'Absolute Paintball' at Pondwood Farm, White Waltham? Or do you know that there was footage in that programme (or elsewhere) from Matley Wood campsite in the New Forest?

Mousa Brown, of Walthamstow, was cleared by the jury of one count of receiving weapons training contrary to section 54 of the Terrorism Act, and found not guilty by the judge’s direction of one count of providing weapons training.

Very strange indeed!

DAVE BONES said...

Yeah there was a short video filmed on a mobile phone. Not guilty by the judges direction? I missed that bit. I was there for the sentencing but not the verdicts.

DAVE BONES said...

As for Hassan, I have been looking through my notes. I wrote down a cryptic conversation from a tape recorded at the Jamia Islamia where Hamid is advising him about "Job centres" where he is intending to go, and "Getting bad jobs". I don't think this is in relation to Job centres here. I think it is in relation to joining the Jihad in Africa. Obviously I have no idea of the situation over there, who is on the side of right and who is wrong. I can't see a defensive Jihad along the lines of what happened in Afghanistan against the Russians as wrong.

Anonymous said...

The transcripts of the Inquest into the death of Jean Charles de Menezes touches briefly on the prior surveillance in the Lake District of the July 21st/Hamid etc. lot in May 2004.

Search the documents for 'Operation Ragstone'.