Frenetic ramblings from the start of the "War on Terror" logging my attempts to film outside Finsbury park mosque over 3 years and sitting through all the subsequent court cases. These days I am usually on Post Factual Society on Facebuk. Do visit Youtube.com/malungtvnews
Yeah, I love all of them. All of you guys. It worries me. It seems, especially cos I'm reading about Kennedy maybe, that you are all still in the cold war mentality. I'm not addressing just you personally, but all the Republicans who have been good enough to communicate with me in the last three years.
Its like this side of America has an intense need to define itself by its enemy, and when that enemy was Russia and world communism, it was fairly real and present.
For such a huge country as the US to transfer that metality to a tiny terorist group as Al-Quaida as an enemy, and let it define foreign policy in as huge a way as the cold war did seems ludicrous,but in another way it is blatantly obvious that Al-Quaida (conspiracy theories apart) have done more damage internally to the US than communism ever achieved.
Saying "they" are all evil and "we" are all "right" and America is the best country in the world, you know...
I don't know if the US is just a young and naiive country and passes that on to its kids and "Europe" is cynical and passes that on. It might be something about post-colonialism.
I've been trying to make sense of it for a long time. The Guantanamo situation seems to be the thorn around which the argument revolves.
I'm still arguing with the intention of trying to understand.
I linked to one of the more intense debates we had, I talk to these people most days very aimiably. I'm not suprised how they feel. They have good reasons. Emotions are strong waves.
Its not like its dangerous.
Sometimes I feel that the bloggers on both sides of this are like pioneers. I don't think this level of communication at grass-roots level happened so much before blogging. I'm glad that it occupies my mind so much. I don't think these people are fascists.
Jeff probably feels so strongly because he is gay and it is part of these peoples religion to kill gays. He doesn't need more excuses than that to say "kil'em all".
Maybe I am still a bit utopian. I think like the guy in Infidels part 1 says
"we are all flesh and blood and bone" all of us. Talking to people I agree with all the time solves nothing.
Both sides have their propaganda, and, when they just take turns selling it, the debate goes out the window...along with any fascination for me.
The friction of opinion is a useful and important foundry of ideas, but only when the give and take honorably pursues the argument, wherever it leads.
Attachment to outcome renders most of these discussions useless. Far better to shape and refine your opinion, and express it fully formed in an unfettered venue.
I've said it before, I admire your sincere efforts, but sometimes it seems like you're banging your head on a wall.
I see. It's propaganda when it doesn't mesh with YOUR views.
Right.
dave and I have had an "objective discourse" and I think we have learned a lot from each other.
It is close minded people like yourself that throws stones and glass houses.
The link dave provided was a more heated debate because I grow tired of the America bashing.
There are MANY things I hate about America, but we are the most giving nation in the world. And the most free. And I don't think there is anything arrogant about saying it.
Absolutely. I want everyone to say how they feel, however it might affect me or the debate.
There is no point not saying it. It frustrates me more when you all go quiet on me, but I understand that too.
These are very emotive subjects we clash on and however we approach them it is hard to make any real understanding or real progress. As Indy says its easy for anyone to base arguments on outcome.
But in the end, you know, my comments aren't deleted. We link to each other, and its an important and as I said before, a pioneering link I feel. Sparkle is right. We learn from each other, in a very abstract way which is hard to define but its true. People like us would probably never have met in real life.
This is a curiosity of the internet, I still feel as if something may come of it. I much prefer talking in cyberspace to a bunch of Republicans regularly than a room full of protester types that i agree with. I don't think they are fascists. I think we are all the same.
Sparkle- You prove my point. You either didn't read my words, don't understand them, or don't intend to try to.
You might reevaluate your definition of objective.
One problem with the RW is it's so caught up in its smug elitist jingoism it can't see past the knee-jerk rhetoric to criticize constructively. Too caught up in the propaganda, name-calling and self-importance to spank the Left where it has it coming.
I'll say it again: The dialog is served by the friction of ideas, as long as it is pursued in good faith and respects wherever it leads.
Nope, I am not out to sell anybody on any position except integrity and honesty.
We are neither the most giving nor the most free. That is a good example of propaganda. Have you ever lived elsewhere? America is frighteningly on the verge of a police state. Have you noticed all the SWAT teams in action lately?
Blame and accountability are interchangeable in the RW vocabulary, depending on which way the political wind blows.
I won't bore you with all the quotes by statesmen who warned against the stifling of dissent, and implored patriots to be ever vigilant, speak out, and root out the insidious flaws of our perilously great country.
I think it is diferent for you than it is for me. When British Conservatives were in power in the 1980s over here I would find it very dificult to see them as anything but my enemy.
Because I'm not American, Republicans are more of a curiosity, especially those I can communicate with.
The sort of post I have linked to in this example shows a hiatus of exasperation on my part, but still we sit safely behind computer screens.
If the western world takes a down turn, as it is bound to do due to its unsustainability these sort of relationships could be very useful to our species. Crossing divides and realising the similarities with those on the other side is something I try to encourage amongst Republicans who, as I say, seem to me to define themselves by their enemies.
I'm more and more convinced that THIS, what we are living now, is the tower of Babel.
If I were offended by anything these people have said, i would give up. I'm not.
As idealistic as I am, and would also like to bridge the gaps, I recognize we live in a dualistic reality and the dynamic of opposing views is a natural, healthy thing.
The heat generated by honorable debate stokes the forge in which we test the mettle of ideas. Without disagreement we would lose our edge.
The dilemma is that the nature of the debate has been corrupted to the point of uselessness. It spins, endlessly.
I haven't lived anywhere else, but I have traveled quite a bit. And when I travel I always make it a point to visit areas that are not for tourists. When that happens I always see poverty that would make a welfare mother in America look like a queen.
That tells me we are doing something a bit more right than others.
I think many on the left still see the Republican party as the party it was in the 60's and 70's. But people of faith invaded in the 80's and we change the party radically. We still believe in Capitalism because it works, but our issues go far beyond money.
I had this conversation with a hippie the other day who was trying to tell me how great Thatcher was. On a basic level I see Capitalism as motivating some sort of self worth etc,
but on a grand scale- which is what neither Republican or democratic governments deal with and is why I would support neither- Capitalism is mass exploitation.
Huge multi-nationals destroying economies all over south America so that the people see no benefit from the wealth of their own lands.
This is all as clear as the nose on my face. When I went round India it was the same. External companies encouraging an elite to exploit.
I don't want this to happen. I see this capitalism as a nightmare.
Its the same when I see how for example, US tax dollars are spent. because there are 200 million Americans, that is a huge chunk of money. Look at Laos in the 1950s. Because both Moscow and Washington thought of it a "strategically important" tax dollars annhialated a pacifist, budhist culture.
I think US tax dollars are frightening especially when they are backed by a "big idea" for somewhere else. I'm almost glad that the Europeans are more cynical and jaded although I definately don't think this makes them any better.
so much of capitalism is totally useless to humans too. When I look at what people actually do for money in the city it drives me crazy.
I try my hardest not to buy new clothes. I look round me and see everyone wearing slavery. Everyone accepts it as normal but people like Blair worship it as "free market economics.
If people of faith have a good foothold in the republican party I thought this sort of thing should be addressed, and its not. I'm not blaming anyone else, its my fault too.
In my time with Islamists I never felt like becoming a Muslim, but I've become convinced that Islamic principles of banking would sort most of this out in no time. People only pay tax on "stagnant" money encouraging reinvestment for the good of people, no interest. The more I looked at this the more I thought
"Its such a shame these people want to kill homosexuals"
Bones- I fear you've lurched into lucidity. Well said, BRAVO, you are right on target. Healthy capitalism might be tenable, but the current version works momentarily for the few, at the expense of the many.
Most of the 'people on the left' see the contemporary Republican party for what it is, and only wish it were the version of the 60s and 70s. Never thought I'd miss Nixon, but I do...desperately.
Republicans haven't cornered the market on faith, by the way. Except maybe the Benny Hinnvariety.
MISS NIXON? He was worse than Thatcher no?. Interesting televangelist. I've been thinking of making a film about faith healing. I knew someone who was healed by a very dodgy one once.
Did you click both links? The second one has video clips. The Daily Show ended with one the other day which showed Benny on stage, swinging his suit jacket around, and felling massive numbers of his adoring horde with, what seemed, some sort of miraculous power.
Belief is a powerful thing.
I felt Nixon was the best argument, to that point, for a devil incarnate...I think I was the first in Austin with an IMPEACH NIXON bumpersticker. Yeah, those were the good old days, when the evil Right at least had enough intellectual substance to sink your teeth into.
We have slipped into the abyss.
Read Fear and Loathing on the Campaign Trail, if you haven't yet.
27 comments:
Thanks for keeping your sense of humor through it all. (Cheers!)
Perhaps everybody needs to step back and take a deep breath (myself included).
I'd comment more, but I can tell you're a bit worn out.
Yeah, I love all of them. All of you guys. It worries me. It seems, especially cos I'm reading about Kennedy maybe, that you are all still in the cold war mentality. I'm not addressing just you personally, but all the Republicans who have been good enough to communicate with me in the last three years.
Its like this side of America has an intense need to define itself by its enemy, and when that enemy was Russia and world communism, it was fairly real and present.
For such a huge country as the US to transfer that metality to a tiny terorist group as Al-Quaida as an enemy, and let it define foreign policy in as huge a way as the cold war did seems ludicrous,but in another way it is blatantly obvious that Al-Quaida (conspiracy theories apart) have done more damage internally to the US than communism ever achieved.
Saying "they" are all evil and "we" are all "right" and America is the best country in the world, you know...
I don't know if the US is just a young and naiive country and passes that on to its kids and "Europe" is cynical and passes that on. It might be something about post-colonialism.
I've been trying to make sense of it for a long time. The Guantanamo situation seems to be the thorn around which the argument revolves.
I'm still arguing with the intention of trying to understand.
You're barking up a dead tree. My advice is to ignore the toxic smug of the ugly American personified.
What an arrogant load of jingoistic, misinformed, factually errant bullshit. Pity the fool and dwell on truth.
You venture too readily into the wellspring of Fascism...tread carefully.
I linked to one of the more intense debates we had, I talk to these people most days very aimiably. I'm not suprised how they feel. They have good reasons. Emotions are strong waves.
Its not like its dangerous.
Sometimes I feel that the bloggers on both sides of this are like pioneers. I don't think this level of communication at grass-roots level happened so much before blogging. I'm glad that it occupies my mind so much. I don't think these people are fascists.
Jeff probably feels so strongly because he is gay and it is part of these peoples religion to kill gays. He doesn't need more excuses than that to say "kil'em all".
Maybe I am still a bit utopian. I think like the guy in Infidels part 1 says
"we are all flesh and blood and bone" all of us. Talking to people I agree with all the time solves nothing.
"The dark night of fascism is forever descending upon the United States, yet somehow it always lands in Europe" - Jean Francois Revel
Fascism has found us...for anyone with eyes and ears, and a working mind.
Not dangerous?
Bones- A debate is an objective discourse, based in good faith bargaining.
Delusional propagandafests are nothing but ideological wanking.
"Cast not your pearls before swine."
Big Dog- as they say "LOL"!
Indigo-This sort of propagandafest is only usually brought out when we get round to Gitmo. I think it is fascinating.
I don't know, I've heard others call Sparkles blog a propagandafest, but if it was why is there so many regulars from the left?
Both sides have their propaganda, and, when they just take turns selling it, the debate goes out the window...along with any fascination for me.
The friction of opinion is a useful and important foundry of ideas, but only when the give and take honorably pursues the argument, wherever it leads.
Attachment to outcome renders most of these discussions useless. Far better to shape and refine your opinion, and express it fully formed in an unfettered venue.
I've said it before, I admire your sincere efforts, but sometimes it seems like you're banging your head on a wall.
Indigo,
I see. It's propaganda when it doesn't mesh with YOUR views.
Right.
dave and I have had an "objective discourse" and I think we have learned a lot from each other.
It is close minded people like yourself that throws stones and glass houses.
The link dave provided was a more heated debate because I grow tired of the America bashing.
There are MANY things I hate about America, but we are the most giving nation in the world. And the most free. And I don't think there is anything arrogant about saying it.
Absolutely. I want everyone to say how they feel, however it might affect me or the debate.
There is no point not saying it. It frustrates me more when you all go quiet on me, but I understand that too.
These are very emotive subjects we clash on and however we approach them it is hard to make any real understanding or real progress. As Indy says its easy for anyone to base arguments on outcome.
But in the end, you know, my comments aren't deleted. We link to each other, and its an important and as I said before, a pioneering link I feel. Sparkle is right. We learn from each other, in a very abstract way which is hard to define but its true. People like us would probably never have met in real life.
This is a curiosity of the internet, I still feel as if something may come of it. I much prefer talking in cyberspace to a bunch of Republicans regularly than a room full of protester types that i agree with. I don't think they are fascists. I think we are all the same.
Sparkle- You prove my point. You either didn't read my words, don't understand them, or don't intend to try to.
You might reevaluate your definition of objective.
One problem with the RW is it's so caught up in its smug elitist jingoism it can't see past the knee-jerk rhetoric to criticize constructively. Too caught up in the propaganda, name-calling and self-importance to spank the Left where it has it coming.
I'll say it again: The dialog is served by the friction of ideas, as long as it is pursued in good faith and respects wherever it leads.
Nope, I am not out to sell anybody on any position except integrity and honesty.
One or two more things:
We are neither the most giving nor the most free. That is a good example of propaganda. Have you ever lived elsewhere? America is frighteningly on the verge of a police state. Have you noticed all the SWAT teams in action lately?
Blame and accountability are interchangeable in the RW vocabulary, depending on which way the political wind blows.
I won't bore you with all the quotes by statesmen who warned against the stifling of dissent, and implored patriots to be ever vigilant, speak out, and root out the insidious flaws of our perilously great country.
*snort*
What else to do Indigo? Talk to the other side, try my hardest to reach an understanding so that WE ALL become WE. I want it to happen.
The nature of the dialog has to change to be productive.
Leave them to wallow in their self-satisfied snorting.
I think it is diferent for you than it is for me. When British Conservatives were in power in the 1980s over here I would find it very dificult to see them as anything but my enemy.
Because I'm not American, Republicans are more of a curiosity, especially those I can communicate with.
The sort of post I have linked to in this example shows a hiatus of exasperation on my part, but still we sit safely behind computer screens.
If the western world takes a down turn, as it is bound to do due to its unsustainability these sort of relationships could be very useful to our species. Crossing divides and realising the similarities with those on the other side is something I try to encourage amongst Republicans who, as I say, seem to me to define themselves by their enemies.
I'm more and more convinced that THIS, what we are living now, is the tower of Babel.
If I were offended by anything these people have said, i would give up. I'm not.
The problem is that Conservatives are their own enemy.
Otherwise, you are correct, sir.
Quixotic, but correct.
As idealistic as I am, and would also like to bridge the gaps, I recognize we live in a dualistic reality and the dynamic of opposing views is a natural, healthy thing.
The heat generated by honorable debate stokes the forge in which we test the mettle of ideas. Without disagreement we would lose our edge.
The dilemma is that the nature of the debate has been corrupted to the point of uselessness. It spins, endlessly.
certainly feels like it sometimes
Quixotic. Had to look that one up. That is like a dictionary definition of me.
I haven't lived anywhere else, but I have traveled quite a bit. And when I travel I always make it a point to visit areas that are not for tourists. When that happens I always see poverty that would make a welfare mother in America look like a queen.
That tells me we are doing something a bit more right than others.
I think many on the left still see the Republican party as the party it was in the 60's and 70's. But people of faith invaded in the 80's and we change the party radically. We still believe in Capitalism because it works, but our issues go far beyond money.
I had this conversation with a hippie the other day who was trying to tell me how great Thatcher was. On a basic level I see Capitalism as motivating some sort of self worth etc,
but on a grand scale- which is what neither Republican or democratic governments deal with and is why I would support neither- Capitalism is mass exploitation.
Huge multi-nationals destroying economies all over south America so that the people see no benefit from the wealth of their own lands.
This is all as clear as the nose on my face. When I went round India it was the same. External companies encouraging an elite to exploit.
I don't want this to happen. I see this capitalism as a nightmare.
Its the same when I see how for example, US tax dollars are spent. because there are 200 million Americans, that is a huge chunk of money. Look at Laos in the 1950s. Because both Moscow and Washington thought of it a "strategically important" tax dollars annhialated a pacifist, budhist culture.
I think US tax dollars are frightening especially when they are backed by a "big idea" for somewhere else. I'm almost glad that the Europeans are more cynical and jaded although I definately don't think this makes them any better.
so much of capitalism is totally useless to humans too. When I look at what people actually do for money in the city it drives me crazy.
I try my hardest not to buy new clothes. I look round me and see everyone wearing slavery. Everyone accepts it as normal but people like Blair worship it as "free market economics.
If people of faith have a good foothold in the republican party I thought this sort of thing should be addressed, and its not. I'm not blaming anyone else, its my fault too.
In my time with Islamists I never felt like becoming a Muslim, but I've become convinced that Islamic principles of banking would sort most of this out in no time. People only pay tax on "stagnant" money encouraging reinvestment for the good of people, no interest. The more I looked at this the more I thought
"Its such a shame these people want to kill homosexuals"
Bones- I fear you've lurched into lucidity. Well said, BRAVO, you are right on target. Healthy capitalism might be tenable, but the current version works momentarily for the few, at the expense of the many.
Most of the 'people on the left' see the contemporary Republican party for what it is, and only wish it were the version of the 60s and 70s. Never thought I'd miss Nixon, but I do...desperately.
Republicans haven't cornered the market on faith, by the way. Except maybe the Benny Hinn variety.
MISS NIXON? He was worse than Thatcher no?. Interesting televangelist. I've been thinking of making a film about faith healing. I knew someone who was healed by a very dodgy one once.
Did you click both links? The second one has video clips. The Daily Show ended with one the other day which showed Benny on stage, swinging his suit jacket around, and felling massive numbers of his adoring horde with, what seemed, some sort of miraculous power.
Belief is a powerful thing.
I felt Nixon was the best argument, to that point, for a devil incarnate...I think I was the first in Austin with an IMPEACH NIXON bumpersticker. Yeah, those were the good old days, when the evil Right at least had enough intellectual substance to sink your teeth into.
We have slipped into the abyss.
Read Fear and Loathing on the Campaign Trail, if you haven't yet.
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