I walked in ten minutes late.
"Did Atilla mean to encourage people to go out and commit acts of violence that day? next week?"
"Atilla hasn't got an aggressive bone in his body. He doesn't mean any harm to anyone."
He was asked about his stuff about "Taking off heads"
"That is in majority Muslim countries who are ruled over by dictators. You've got to fight them. This is from the Koran- a situation the prophet was dealing with at the time.
There was a lot of stuff about the meanings behind what he and Atilla said.
What was this business about an inner circle?
He wanted to be organised, get a community centre. Do everything legally.
How did this go?
It fell apart the next week. People who lived near somewhere worth looking at didn't even go. People didn't take any responsibilities.
He was asked about Dawood.
"Lovely guy. The best of the best of the people there."
He had a lot of problem with peoples time keeping, and people who said they were going to do things and didn't. Dawood wasn't like this. He was on time, always willing to use his car to pick people up, he would suggest things. He would never accept petrol money from anyone.
"Even seeing him in the witness box I can't feel bad towards him."
At this point all of the Anti-terror guys would have made a great picture. I wonder if they will be looking up into the public gallery to gauge the reaction when Hamid is cross examined.
He was asked about a bit more of Atilla's stuff.
"He means the fight with the tongue. All in the room would have taken it as such. He means when the Mahdi (A sort of messiah figure) comes back ."
He explained this as a time when one third of Muslims would run, a third would die fighting and the remaining third would be victorious.
I hadn't heard it put so well before and was left thinking if Stephen Dawkins, (who I don't usually like) might be right about his "virus of faith" theory. This is that self fulfilling prophesy thing. Get a group of people who believe they will have to fight everyone else to survive at some point in the future, they look for those signs. they prepare for them. Christians do the same. They draw this destiny to themselves and the rest of us are stuck in it. At times like this I sort of think the noblest of the many fractured reasons why I started this come into play. This is what I tried to get to know Atilla for. I want no part in these destinies written in books long ago. Surely inter community relations outside of government is the most important thing at the moment.
The prosecution only interjected twice to complain, once about "What did Atilla intend..." as he can't know someone else's intentions, only what he took statements to mean. The other time was to remind the jury that Atilla had pleaded guilty on the passage referred to. This made a lot clearer to me the tensions joining Hamid and Atilla would create between them. This was a clever move on the part of the prosecution.
Hamid sort of said everything which would appear inflammatory on the tapes was either from the Koran or referring to a spiritual fight. Marble Arch was his front line and he was there six days a week. There was a contract of peace between Muslims and this country as they had total freedom to practice their religion and there was a Koranic ban on suicide or harming innocents.
He explained everything Atilla was saying as referring to protest. He said both of them exaggerate, are unclear and talk plain cobblers sometimes.
"Cockneys call it Cock and Bull".
Late afternoon we got to the interesting bit about his "breakfast" statement
Hamid explained that Atilla had been verbally abusive to his wife which he didn't like to hear in front of his grandchildren and all the others on the camp site. He hadn't heard Atilla singing any Jihadi calypso and earlier when others had complained about filling in forms, he had reminded them it was common practice on all campsites. Atilla was really loosing it.
"When he said "I want to pack it in, walk it where it wants to be walked and let it go " what was he referring to?"
"Would he do this?"
"No. Never. Not ever."
Hamid explained that his reply was an attempt to address Atilla on his level. There was never any point in directly opposing things Atilla said as he would dig his heels in. He was saying- why would you commit suicide? If I wanted to bomb I would use my intelligence and bomb and get away with it like Jack the Ripper. This wasn't stating an intention to bomb. It was telling Atilla not to commit suicide.
As I said the Anti-Terror guys looked really worried, confronted as they were with Hamids simple charm, slightly skewed cockneyisms and "Plepeated Uranium". Remembering the Hamza case it also came across like this at this stage so I wouldn't be thinking he was home and dry quite yet. Hamid is very, very different to Hamza but he is using a similar argument.
The "Britishness" of the personalities of all these fundamentalists is fascinating.
My question to Musa Ahmet and I accept it might (now) be an irrelevant one is that why would his brother associate himself with anyone who goes around with the views that 7/7 was breakfast? Given that Atilla has been a person of interest to the authorities re his ‘extremist views’, wouldn’t it have been wise to stay clear of company that would reinforce the perception that he was an enemy of HMG (in the context of his views)? What I’m getting at here is surely he could have done more (be proactive) in demonstrating that his views are not ‘extremist’ in the way that many (including myself) feel they are (having listen to him once at Speakers’ Corner and several times on TV)?
It’s all too late now, Atilla and the rest of the group’s fate now lies in the hands of British justice.
Does the text say it all? “Fear none but Allah” and "we will not change our ways." According to BBC, the above statement was a text that Mohammed Hamid had sent to Hussein Osman, one of the four 21/7 would-be suicide bombers, within hours of the 7/7 bombings. Of course only a real die hard terrorist would admit to the true meaning and reason for sending such a callous text to an ‘extremist’ (but there none). Not even Osama bin London can admit to the true meaning and reason for sending the text. So much for his many rants in Speakers’ Corner that he fears nobody (MI5 et al).
My question to Musa Ahmet (and I accept he might find it impossible to answer for Mohammed Hamid) is that what kind of person (Muslim or Kaffir) sends that text within hours of a horrific bombing aimed at killing innocent people of all faiths? Most sane and decent people of all faiths were sending messages of comfort and expressing fear on that sad day (I FELT REAL SADDNESS & ANGER THAT DAY). Can we really say that the above text message was one of ‘comfort’ to Hussein Osman or one of encouragement to stay the course of Jihad?
yes your right about that very very bad day, i feel for all those who died, who are left limbless and the familys who will suffer for the rest of their lives, they will miss their loved ones everyday and on special days i.e birthdays and so on as will the people abroad who are suffering the same fate by the bombings from the west, as for hamids comment about fear none but allah, this is islamic, allah is our creator and it is he allah that we will be judged by on the day of jugdement and we are to fear allah and his punishment and not man or anyother thing, as for hamid sending it to a would be bomber, well, only allah and hamid knows why he sent that text.
Thank you for addressing my question on the text from Hamid. I should like to believe that you have answered it honestly.
As to your brother’s relationship with Hamid, I still feel that your brother could have done more shrug off the ‘label’ that many view him with - an Islamic extremist. In a democracy I believe we all have the right to air our views and show dissent on various issues. However, in a democracy we must also accept that some views will never be acceptable.
Regarding your arrest along with your brother in that restaurant, if the police were watching you for 8 months they must have valid suspicions for monitoring your movements or credible intelligence on whatever activities you may have been involved in? No doubt your release without charge should I hope give you confidence in British justice?
african neocon, you wrote,Regarding your arrest along with your brother in that restaurant, if the police were watching you for 8 months they must have valid suspicions for monitoring your movements or credible intelligence on whatever activities you may have been involved in? No doubt your release without charge should I hope give you confidence in British justice?
The reason my brother and myself being watched by the police was because of 1 person called sean, he was a very close so called friend, he embraced islam and became a muslim brother or so we all thought, he robbed my home as well as alot of other muslims he befriended,i went to his parents to find out where sean had gone to, i explained to his parents what sean had done,i tried to recover what this person stole from me,sean told his parents not to trust me and that i was a liar, he told them i was a terrorist, one thing led to another and sean started to have meetings with his parents present with the anti terrorist squad as well as special branch and mi5,sean told them that my brother atilla was a talker,but told them i was financing terrorism, thats how it became for the police to start to watch us, as you know i was put in prison for 8 months untill the police did their investigation on me and found out the truth that this was a lie by sean and i was released, HOW DO I KNOW THIS,I WAS TOLD BY A VERY CLOSE RELATIVE OF SEANS AND TOLD IN DETAIL, HE DID THIS TO ME WISHING THAT I WOULD GO AWAY FOR A VERY LONG TIME SO THAT HE COULD GET AWAY WITH ROBBING ME,AS FOR BRITISH JUSTICE, I THANK THE JURY VERY MUCH FOR FINDING ME NOT GUILTY ON THE SIGNAL KIT, AS FOR THE POLICE, THEY SHOULDNT STITCH INNOCENT PEOPLE UP AND DO THEIR JOBS PROPERLY
Your last post proves my point: British justice works. It was very unfortunate that you had to experience what you when through. No matter how one views the police (and the negative stories we have heard about them) they sure don't enjoy ‘stitching up’ anyone let alone Muslims. In the UK (unlike some other countries) such acts always backfire. We must begin to learn to praise and cooperate with the police when they need our cooperation and criticize them when its appropriate.
Its great that you are here and talking. We have to be careful of "contempt of court" issues around Hamid, I'm aware that a lot of this looks like evidence which won't be called now Atilla's pleaded guilty.
To address what Hamid said in court about his text message after 7/7. he explained that he sent the same message to a group list, even to people he had fallen out with, as he claimed had happened in the case of Muktar and Yassin.
He said that he was texting this in the firm belief that 7/7 was the work of MI-5 who wanted to instigate trouble for Muslims in this country, and that it was encouragement to stand firm in faith, not justification for terrorism.
As all of you know Hamid, he didn't say it quite like that but I think I've represented the spirit of his evidence.
Taking advice I have removed a comment by MUSA AHMET due to worries about Contempt of Court issues.
This comment will re-appear at the end of the trial.
Well I can agree with that: throughout the time that I knew Hamid at Speakers’ Corner he was an on message conspiracy fruitcake. I remember on one occasion him telling us that senior British politicians routinely killed new born babies and drank their blood. This he claimed he discovered this while researching at a secret library here in the London. Poor Jihadi!
As the removed post by DB, if it’s necessary, so be it.
Anyway dude your coverage in this post kicks the shit out of anything in the Times. You can write! I thought you were more of a hippy psychedelic finger-paint sort of person.
MUSA AHMET COMMENT reintroduced:
I musa brother of atiila would like to point out that hamid had no right to make a remark like he did about mt brother as my brother wasnt talking to hamid and wasnt talking about suicide, my brother was talking to ALI about his wife and saying to ali i need to pack it in and walking it where it needs to be walked and letting it go, what my brother was saying to ali was, he was packing his wife in and walking her where she needed to be walked and letting her go i.e seperating...AND at no point did my brother talk about suicide,
my brother didnt go around with someone that thought 7/7 was breakfast, my brother went to hamids house for friday food and islamic chat, he never went anywhere with the group, he hang around with me, we was watched for 8 months and we went for dinner to that restaurant when it was raided, i myself was even put into prison for almost 9 months and the terrorist charges was dropped and they released me, the police are not doing their job, they have arrested alot of innocent muslims,strange the media never told about my charges being dropped and me being released.even this case is aload of rubbish, i was in prison with the group and there was never ever a plot to blow anyone up,
This is Atillas wife here, I would like to add that my husband only went to hamids house 19 times in one year and for the last 6 weeks beore his arrest he didnt go,and as embarassing as it is yes he was having a go about me,and its just the way he speaks im quite used to it now after 10 years,he was having a bad day and never would consider suicide he loves his children and me too much and belives suicide is forbidden in islam.
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